Discussion:
OT: 2 British citizens, 1 Pakistani among Mumbai terrorists
(too old to reply)
Sanjiv Karmarkar
2008-11-28 15:27:14 UTC
Permalink
According to CNN, at least 2 terrorists are British citizens and at
least one was Pakistani citizen, and there could be more. The
mothership that was (allegedly) communicating with the terrorists was
a Pakistani ship.

Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack? Should we not be retaliating; and if
yes, how?

Believe me; I do not want a war. I believe in economic and commercial
wars, I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past. But do we
have a choice in this matter? What is a nation to do when attacked?
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center. 2 Americans are dead. And among
the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis. Folks, this is now very very
very serious.

Incidentally, I've never been more ashamed of Shivraj Patil and
Vilasrao Deskmukh than I'm today. I've always disliked them deeply,
but this is the last straw. These guys claim ancestry from Shivaji,
but the way they talk and the way they act; they are among the most
cowardly people in the entire world.

Both of them blurted out more nonsense today, some BS about "terrorism
has no religion" etc. Well, if 99% of the terrorists are Muslims,
then terrorism does have a religion.

Sanjiv Karmarkar
Ravi
2008-11-28 15:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
According to CNN, at least 2 terrorists are British citizens and at
least one was Pakistani citizen, and there could be more.  The
mothership that was (allegedly) communicating with the terrorists was
a Pakistani ship.
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India?  Does this
not place India under attack?  Should we not be retaliating; and if
yes, how?
Believe me; I do not want a war.  I believe in economic and commercial
wars, I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past.  But do we
have a choice in this matter?  What is a nation to do when attacked?
What would the great nation of Israel do right now?  These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center.  2 Americans are dead.  And among
the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis.  Folks, this is now very very
very serious.
Incidentally, I've never been more ashamed of Shivraj Patil and
Vilasrao Deskmukh than I'm today.  I've always disliked them deeply,
but this is the last straw.  These guys claim ancestry from Shivaji,
but the way they talk and the way they act; they are among the most
cowardly people in the entire world.
Both of them blurted out more nonsense today, some BS about "terrorism
has no religion" etc.  Well, if 99% of the terrorists are Muslims,
then terrorism does have a religion.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
and the spineless Sharad Power will organize a Terrorist Champions
League
Brijesh
2008-11-28 19:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ravi
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
According to CNN, at least 2 terrorists are British citizens and at
least one was Pakistani citizen, and there could be more. The
mothership that was (allegedly) communicating with the terrorists was
a Pakistani ship.
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack? Should we not be retaliating; and if
yes, how?
Believe me; I do not want a war. I believe in economic and commercial
wars, I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past. But do we
have a choice in this matter? What is a nation to do when attacked?
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center. 2 Americans are dead. And among
the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis. Folks, this is now very very
very serious.
Incidentally, I've never been more ashamed of Shivraj Patil and
Vilasrao Deskmukh than I'm today. I've always disliked them deeply,
but this is the last straw. These guys claim ancestry from Shivaji,
but the way they talk and the way they act; they are among the most
cowardly people in the entire world.
Both of them blurted out more nonsense today, some BS about "terrorism
has no religion" etc. Well, if 99% of the terrorists are Muslims,
then terrorism does have a religion.
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"? Whats the
point here? What do you want to do next?

Mumbai had been a safe city before the 1992 madness in Ayodhya. The
reason why we are facing an attack from outside if because of these
pseudo nationalistic people who have dragged the attackers from
concentrated areas of Kashmir /northern cities to all over India now.

Having said that, I hate the current government for being clueless
against these attacks. But if a country like US has not been able to
flush out terrorist support from Pakistan, what chance does India
have?
Post by Ravi
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Sanjiv Karmarkar
and the spineless Sharad Power will organize a Terrorist Champions
League
c***@gmail.com
2008-11-28 21:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Brijesh says...
Post by Brijesh
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"? Whats the
point here? What do you want to do next?
how about acknowledging first that islam is THE problem
and Quran is the source of all hatred muslims have for
all non muslims.
The cliched argument that all religions are equal is
nonsense. ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. IT IS A DISEASE.
Brijesh
2008-11-28 21:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Brijesh says...
Post by Brijesh
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"? Whats the
point here? What do you want to do next?
how about acknowledging first that islam is THE problem
and Quran is the source of all hatred muslims have for
all non muslims.
The cliched argument that all religions are equal is
nonsense. ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. IT IS A DISEASE.
And so what is your solution here? What do you suggest? Again.. whats
your point?

Can you actually think of a solution to this issue that might work?

Anyone sane knows that 99% of people following Islam are not
terrorists although 99% of terrorist are probably following their own
version of Islam which they think is true Islam.

Given this fact.. what exactly do you recommend now that might work?
c***@gmail.com
2008-11-28 21:40:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <ebc14144-a4eb-47ca-a4b8-***@k19g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
Brijesh says...
Post by Brijesh
And so what is your solution here? What do you suggest? Again.. whats
your point?
All muslims must be forced to do an introspection of the
garbage of a religion they are following. Use the media
to trash the religion. Each and every educated muslim
should feel ashamed to be part of the religion.
Demolish all
madrassas. Monitor all mosques for any hate speech.
better, ban muslims younger than 18 years to attend
mosques (china does it successfully).

Next all hindus must vow to boycott muslims. If a
shop is owned by a muslim don't buy. Go to your favorite
restaurant or a tailor and ask whether they employ a muslim.
if yes, then don't patronize them. Next don't watch the movies
where the khans are acting, at least in the theaters. watch it
in pirated DVD which won't make any difference to their flop
movies.

When muslims feel the pinch, they themselves will force the
radical elements in their group to clean up. The trouble is
that good muslims are JUST SITTING ON THEIR BUTT DOING NOTHING.
Brijesh
2008-11-28 21:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Brijesh says...
Post by Brijesh
And so what is your solution here? What do you suggest? Again.. whats
your point?
All muslims must be forced to do an introspection of the
garbage of a religion they are following. Use the media
to trash the religion. Each and every educated muslim
should feel ashamed to be part of the religion.
Demolish all
madrassas. Monitor all mosques for any hate speech.
better, ban muslims younger than 18 years to attend
mosques (china does it successfully).
Next all hindus must vow to boycott muslims. If a
shop is owned by a muslim don't buy. Go to your favorite
restaurant or a tailor and ask whether they employ a muslim.
if yes, then don't patronize them. Next don't watch the movies
where the khans are acting, at least in the theaters. watch it
in pirated DVD which won't make any difference to their flop
movies.
Nice.

Sanjeev Karmarkar.. is this your solution too? Just wondering
Post by c***@gmail.com
When muslims feel the pinch, they themselves will force the
radical elements in their group to clean up. The trouble is
that good muslims are JUST SITTING ON THEIR BUTT DOING NOTHING.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
2008-11-28 22:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brijesh
Sanjeev Karmarkar.. is this your solution too? Just wondering
No. And you misspelled my name.

Sanjiv Karmarkar
Brijesh
2008-11-28 22:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Brijesh
Sanjeev Karmarkar.. is this your solution too? Just wondering
No. And you misspelled my name.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
Sorry about misspelling your name :)
And really glad to know this is not your solution.
unknown
2008-11-29 00:56:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:17:43 -0800 (PST), Brijesh
Post by Brijesh
Post by c***@gmail.com
Brijesh says...
Post by Brijesh
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"? Whats the
point here? What do you want to do next?
how about acknowledging first that islam is THE problem
and Quran is the source of all hatred muslims have for
all non muslims.
The cliched argument that all religions are equal is
nonsense. ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. IT IS A DISEASE.
And so what is your solution here? What do you suggest? Again.. whats
your point?
Can you actually think of a solution to this issue that might work?
Anyone sane knows that 99% of people following Islam are not
terrorists although 99% of terrorist are probably following their own
version of Islam which they think is true Islam.
Given this fact.. what exactly do you recommend now that might work?
I heard that fact in Ireland 30 years ago (different religions).

These terrorists that have caused the problem in India are only just
starting out. There is no immediate solution, because you don't know
what to solve yet. There have been as I understand, no demands of any
kind, no body is reported to be claiming responsibility,or verified to
be responsible and the terrorists are still fighting and winning, in
as much as they could never win the firefight against the special
forces,but they have staged a huge show of strength and committment,
and this is where the terror lies.
The public will worry because of the length of time the security
forces have been engaged with the terrorists, and they will worry
about how easily this incident seemed to happen.

I know, in Northern Ireland the death to population ratio was very
high in many incidents, and although the British security forces and
Garda Schiona knew where and who, they could not determine exactly
when they might strike and killers have gone free because of that.
India does not have 90 years of intelligence on this group and from my
point of view it's like the old IRA raiding the North in 1924, and the
maniac attacks during the 1980s. Almost bravado if it were not so sad,
each victim leaves a mother, and each terrorist has left a mother.
Learn and learn fast.

I'm sorry if my comparison seems harsh or unsympathetic to the wasted
lives in India, but I have grown up in an enviroment where "low level
warfare" (terrorism) was just what happened every day - normal wasted
lives..



max.it
jzfredricks
2008-11-28 22:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
how about acknowledging first that islam is THE problem
and Quran is the source of all hatred muslims have for
all non muslims.
The cliched argument that all religions are equal is
nonsense. ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. IT IS A DISEASE.
Ahhh, neanderthalism at its best.

It's people like you who start this 'war'.
j***@gmail.com
2008-11-28 22:32:58 UTC
Permalink
I see the brave and courageous keyboard warriors are out in full
force. Let us all wish them happy internet warring, which also serves
the useful purpose of killing time as well (apart from killing
kilobytes).

One's thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their near and
dear ones.
Brijesh
2008-11-28 22:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
I see the brave and courageous keyboard warriors are out in full
force. Let us all wish them happy internet warring, which also serves
the useful purpose of killing time as well (apart from killing
kilobytes).
One's thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their near and
dear ones.
I just feel frustrated and have to vent things out. A very close
relative nearly got killed this time. I just feel outraged and pretty
helpless sitting here in the US. Not that I am going to make a big
difference if I go back home. Makes me wonder what I can do to
contribute as a common citizen.

The only thing I believe in is that targeting a particular set of
innocent people who belong to a religion will only increase the
problem.. not reduce it. This is a time to reduce the recruitments,
not do things that will increase recruitments to these organizations.

So I am going to do my bit and try to stop those stupid ideas or
targeting a religion from entering into the minds of perfectly sane
and logical people.
jzfredricks
2008-11-29 00:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brijesh
Makes me wonder what I can do to
contribute as a common citizen.
Protest when the reaction to this deprives you and your family of
civil liberties.
Post by Brijesh
So I am going to do my bit and try to stop those stupid ideas or
targeting a religion from entering into the minds of perfectly sane
and logical people.
Good good. That's pretty much the best reaction one can have. Fighting
evil with evil never works.
« Ballaybaz »
2008-11-29 00:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Even before freeing the hostages Indians have finished the
investigation and blamed Pakistan. That was fast. In one thread an
Indian guy suggested Pakistan was involved in 9/11 too. Amazing.
will_s
2008-11-29 01:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by « Ballaybaz »
Even before freeing the hostages Indians have finished the
investigation and blamed Pakistan. That was fast. In one thread an
Indian guy suggested Pakistan was involved in 9/11 too. Amazing.
It was Pakistan that caused World War 1
subi...@notmail.com
2008-11-29 10:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by « Ballaybaz »
Even before freeing the hostages Indians have finished the
investigation and blamed Pakistan. That was fast. In one thread an
Indian guy suggested Pakistan was involved in 9/11 too. Amazing.
i agree that no evidence exists so far that pakistan as a state and
nation is involved. however, many pakistani citizens or people of
pakistani origin from britain might well be, from the early reports,
and their handlers seems to be located in faridkot, muridke and
muzaffarabad, from the records of their blackberries and mobile
phones. for pakistan and pakistanis the question is whether they can
afford to allow their territory for such actions, given the grave
dangers they pose to pakistan itself. so, ballaybaaz, you can't wash
your hands off it totally either.
Villanova
2008-12-02 11:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by « Ballaybaz »
Even before freeing the hostages Indians have finished the
investigation and blamed Pakistan. That was fast. In one thread an
Indian guy suggested Pakistan was involved in 9/11 too. Amazing.
i agree that no evidence exists so far that pakistan as a state and
nation is involved. however, many pakistani citizens or people of
pakistani origin from britain might well be, from the early reports,
and their handlers seems to be located in faridkot, muridke and
muzaffarabad, from the records of their blackberries and mobile
phones. for pakistan and pakistanis the question is whether they can
afford to allow their territory for such actions, given the grave
dangers they pose to pakistan itself. so, ballaybaaz, you can't wash
your hands off it totally either.
Lashkar E Taiba and Jaish E Mohammed terorist organizations are based in
Pakistan.

It doesnt matter whether the mumbai terroirsts are originally from
pakistan or England.

The mumbai terrorism was planned and executed by LeT and JeM and the
terrorists were trained in pakistan.

End of Story.

Stop your fucking spin. You are sounding worse than Bill O Reilly.


--
posted via www.usenetfast.com - Fastest downloads from $4.50/month !
StraightDrive
2008-11-28 23:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Brijesh says...
Post by Brijesh
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"? Whats the
point here? What do you want to do next?
how about acknowledging first that islam is THE problem
and Quran is the source of all hatred muslims have for
all non muslims.
The cliched argument that all religions are equal is
nonsense. ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. IT IS A DISEASE.
I agree. ISLAM is a DISEASE.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
2008-11-28 21:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brijesh
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"?
That's the problem with you folks; you want to veer from one extreme
to another; for you folks there is no golden-mean. For you, if we do
not agree with the extreme position of 'terrorism has no religion',
then we must at the other extreme of 'all Muslims are terrorists'.
You need to learn to find the middle-ground; that’s where the
pragmatic solution is often found.
Post by Brijesh
Mumbai had been a safe city before the 1992 madness in Ayodhya. The
reason why we are facing an attack from outside if because of these
pseudo nationalistic people who have dragged the attackers from
concentrated areas of Kashmir /northern cities to all over India now.
Oh, so it's all our fault. We are getting killed because a building
was demolished; a building that no one was using for worshipping. I’m
not condoning that act, but IAMNM no body was killed during that
demolishon? But you say we are responsible for the butchering of
innocent lives going on Delhi, Ahmadabad and Mumbai over the last
several years? The mass-murdering terrorists are just victims evil
Hindus then. With this despicable mindset, is there any surprise that
you people have always been ruled by foreigners?
Post by Brijesh
But if a country like US has not been able to fluch out
terrorist support from Pakistan, what chance does India have?
How many attacks have there been in the US since 9/11?

Sanjiv Karmarkar
Brijesh
2008-11-28 21:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Brijesh
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"?
That's the problem with you folks; you want to veer from one extreme
to another; for you folks there is no golden-mean. For you, if we do
not agree with the extreme position of 'terrorism has no religion',
then we must at the other extreme of 'all Muslims are terrorists'.
You need to learn to find the middle-ground; that’s where the
pragmatic solution is often found.
Post by Brijesh
Mumbai had been a safe city before the 1992 madness in Ayodhya. The
reason why we are facing an attack from outside if because of these
pseudo nationalistic people who have dragged the attackers from
concentrated areas of Kashmir /northern cities to all over India now.
Oh, so it's all our fault. We are getting killed because a building
was demolished; a building that no one was using for worshipping. I’m
not condoning that act, but IAMNM no body was killed during that
demolishon? But you say we are responsible for the butchering of
innocent lives going on Delhi, Ahmadabad and Mumbai over the last
No we are not. When did I ever say that? I am only saying we decided
to wake up the people who could be possible doing it and asked them to
do it. Before this they were only concentrating in other parts of
India (Kashmir)
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
several years? The mass-murdering terrorists are just victims evil
Hindus then.
No they are not. They are responsible for mass murders. We just
brought their attention to my city (Mumbai).

With this despicable mindset, is there any surprise that
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
you people have always been ruled by foreigners?
Look.. all i am saying is that I felt VERY safe living in Mumbai
before the 1992 madness. And after that it all went downhill. I am
saying all it took to "spark" the mad men doing this in the name of
Islam was that bit. That does not justify what they are doing at all.
However it does make me want to kick the people who catalyzed this
whole series of reactions
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Brijesh
But if a country like US has not been able to fluch out
terrorist support from Pakistan, what chance does India have?
How many attacks have there been in the US since 9/11?
Does not mean they are able to do anything about terrorists in
Pakistan. They just beefed up their own security at home. We can
probably do that too, but I don't expect us to solve the root cause if
the US has not been able to do that.
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Sanjiv Karmarkar
PS: I wonder where is Shiv Sena now? Taj is now occupied by the non
marathi manus. I hope Raj does something to get rid of them now. Oh..
the commandos are also non marathis by the way. They are from "north"
Sanjiv Karmarkar
2008-11-28 22:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brijesh
Post by Brijesh
Mumbai had been a safe city before the 1992 madness in Ayodhya. The
reason why we are facing an attack from outside if because of these
pseudo nationalistic people who have dragged the attackers from
concentrated areas of Kashmir /northern cities to all over India now.
Oh, so it's all our fault.  We are getting killed because a building
was demolished; a building that no one was using for worshipping.  I’m
not condoning that act, but IAMNM no body was killed during that
demolishon?  But you say we are responsible for the butchering of
innocent lives going on Delhi, Ahmadabad and Mumbai over the last
No we are not. When did I ever say that?
Read your own writing above from a third-person perspective. You’ll
realize that that's precisely what you are saying.
Post by Brijesh
I am only saying we decided
to wake up the people who could be possible doing it and asked them to
do it. Before this they were only concentrating in other parts of
India (Kashmir)
If you are saying that the rise of Muslim terrorism world-wide in the
21st century is somehow linked to what happened in Ayodhya, you are
being extraordinarily naive. The Al Qaida has been on offensive since
late 20th century, and India happens to be one of their major
targets. It has nothing to with Ayodhya; the real reasons go back for
centuries. You were just lucky to feel safe in Mumbai till 1992.
I've no sympathies for Shiv Sena; but your blaming them - however
tangentially - is wrong.
Post by Brijesh
PS: I wonder where is Shiv Sena now? Taj is now occupied by the non
marathi manus. I hope Raj does something to get rid of them now. Oh..
the commandos are also non marathis by the way. They are from "north"
I thought Raj was not Shiv Sena? I may be mistaken, but Shiv Sena I
believe has moved on from being anti-non-Marathi to being anti-
Muslim. Hasn't Raj broken from SS and formed his own party, precisely
for that reason? As far the north-Indian commandoes go, perhaps that
was the problem. I saw on TV how inefficiently they worked.

Sanjiv Karmarkar
Brijesh
2008-11-28 22:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Brijesh
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Brijesh
Mumbai had been a safe city before the 1992 madness in Ayodhya. The
reason why we are facing an attack from outside if because of these
pseudo nationalistic people who have dragged the attackers from
concentrated areas of Kashmir /northern cities to all over India now.
Oh, so it's all our fault. We are getting killed because a building
was demolished; a building that no one was using for worshipping. I’m
not condoning that act, but IAMNM no body was killed during that
demolishon? But you say we are responsible for the butchering of
innocent lives going on Delhi, Ahmadabad and Mumbai over the last
No we are not. When did I ever say that?
Read your own writing above from a third-person perspective.
know what I was thinking here. And it certainly wasn't anything close
to "Oh its our own fault". It was more like "Its the fault of the
guys who created chaos in 1992" . I don't put myself in the same
category. So "It was my own fault" is something that does not come to
my mind
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
You’ll
realize that that's precisely what you are saying.
Post by Brijesh
I am only saying we decided
to wake up the people who could be possible doing it and asked them to
do it. Before this they were only concentrating in other parts of
India (Kashmir)
If you are saying that the rise of Muslim terrorism world-wide in the
21st century is somehow linked to what happened in Ayodhya,
No. I am only saying that Mumbai came into the radar after 1992. It
all started with 1993 serial blasts. Do you deny that?
I

you are
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
being extraordinarily naive. The Al Qaida has been on offensive since
late 20th century, and India happens to be one of their major
targets. It has nothing to with Ayodhya;
Completely agree. But the attention shifted to Mumbai after the 1992
madness. It actually started with the 1993 serial blasts.

the real reasons go back for
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
centuries. You were just lucky to feel safe in Mumbai till 1992.
I've no sympathies for Shiv Sena; but your blaming them - however
tangentially - is wrong.
I am not blaming them. I think it was more like the BJP that i was
close to blaming. Maybe Mumbai was anyways going to become a target
irrespective of what they did. But you cannot deny that it all started
with 1993.
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Brijesh
PS: I wonder where is Shiv Sena now? Taj is now occupied by the non
marathi manus. I hope Raj does something to get rid of them now. Oh..
the commandos are also non marathis by the way. They are from "north"
I thought Raj was not Shiv Sena? I may be mistaken, but Shiv Sena I
believe has moved on from being anti-non-Marathi to being anti-
Muslim.
Shiv Sena was first Anti Gujarati , then it was anti madrasi , then it
was anti muslim. Navnirman Sena which is a break -off of Shiv sena is
anti bhaiyya party.

Hasn't Raj broken from SS and formed his own party, precisely
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
for that reason? As far the north-Indian commandoes go, perhaps that
was the problem. I saw on TV how inefficiently they worked.
At least they worked. And thanks to them its close to being over.
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Sanjiv Karmarkar
Crazy4
2008-11-28 23:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Brijesh, that's the problem with folks like Kararmkar;
They veer from one extreme to another. For them, if we do
not agree with their extreme position, they start putting
words into our mouths. If you say Ayodhya was wrong, they
start they start presenting false dichotomies.


"Brijesh" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:7e25a102-bea1-41d8-9df0-***@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
know what I was thinking here. And it certainly wasn't anything close
to "Oh its our own fault". It was more like "Its the fault of the
guys who created chaos in 1992" . I don't put myself in the same
category. So "It was my own fault" is something that does not come to
my mind
Husband of All FBI n NSA Agents
2008-11-28 23:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crazy4
Brijesh, that's the problem with folks like Kararmkar;
They veer from one extreme to another. For them, if we do
not agree with their extreme position, they start putting
words into our mouths. If you say Ayodhya was wrong, they
start they start presenting false dichotomies.
Ayodhya was not wrong.

Muslims have to grow up and learn to live peacefully with other religions.
Post by Crazy4
know what I was thinking here. And it certainly wasn't anything close
to "Oh its our own fault". It was more like "Its the fault of the
guys who created chaos in 1992" . I don't put myself in the same
category. So "It was my own fault" is something that does not come to
my mind
Geico Caveman
2008-11-29 01:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brijesh
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
If you are saying that the rise of Muslim terrorism world-wide in the
21st century is somehow linked to what happened in Ayodhya,
No. I am only saying that Mumbai came into the radar after 1992. It
all started with 1993 serial blasts. Do you deny that?
I think you are being incredibly naive.

The target of these people is the Indian economy. Ever since the economic
reforms started (1991 or so), attacks on Indian population and economic
centers have been gathering steam. Along with Mumbai, Coimbatore,
Bangalore, Delhi, Hyderabad, etc. have all seen attacks. If the motivation
was purely revenge for Ayodhya, don't you think that targets would have
been almost exclusively Hindu temples ? Why did they attack the stock
market instead (1993) ?

Unless we reunite lots of these people with their 72's, this is only going
to get progressively worse.

Terrorists try to maximize the bang for the buck the world over. They have
been trying to kill our troops, police, paramilitary etc. for close to 3
decades now. In that period, they have realized that those are hard
targets, where for each of our boys killed, they have to pay dearly in
blood, which drives up the effort of recruitment. This is why their targets
have changed to include soft Indian economic targets. This is also the
reason they used fidayeen tactics in Mumbai - they wanted to draw out the
international news coverage (adding in the foreigners' angle boosted that),
which would have been a relative blip if it was just a bomb or even a
series of bombs that killed the same fraction of foreigners that this
entire mess did.

For the estimated investment of 40 pigs' lives, I think that they have
achieved maximal returns.

Do not mistake it for a moment - this will continue until we raise the cost
for them - like taking out the ISI-LeT leadership within Pakistan.

People who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Mahmud
Ghazni invaded India 17 times. Do you think he came back each time because
he found the going hard against the various petty little Rajput
chieftains ? No, he came back because he found easy pickings in an
economically wealthy but politically/militarily weak country with unique
views of pacifism.

Sound familiar ?
Mohan
2008-11-29 08:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Geico Caveman wrote:
<snip>
Post by Geico Caveman
For the estimated investment of 40 pigs' lives, I think that they have
achieved maximal returns.
Do not mistake it for a moment - this will continue until we raise the cost
for them - like taking out the ISI-LeT leadership within Pakistan.
Yes, raising the cost for them is the only approach to solve this. And
the way to do that is through better intelligence and security. Despite
the recent spate of incidents, I do believe that we are improving on the
security front. There have not been bombings involving RDX like the '93
Bombay blasts in recent times. Most of the recent bombings were crude
nut-and-bolt types. This latest incident was an exception, but then they
had to come through sea, which shows that they are getting more and more
desperate and also that security on the land is working if they had to
take the tougher sea route.

But we should shun any so-called solution that is guaranteed to make a
bad situation worse. Some of those commonly suggested include going to
war against a nuclear state or alienating 130 million of our own population.

Mohan
Crazy4
2008-11-29 00:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Where are the supper efficient Marathi commandoes?
Are they hiding in Matushree, waiting for valentines day
to launch their next operation?

"Sanjiv Karmarkar" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:9436c214-7403-4364-a4b0-***@y18g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 28, 4:34 pm, Brijesh wrote:

As far the north-Indian commandoes go, perhaps that
was the problem. I saw on TV how inefficiently they worked.

Sanjiv Karmarkar
Crazy4
2008-11-28 23:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Marathi manoos never fights against terrorists & enemies. He is better at
driving out madrasis, driving out north indians, disallowing
rose days in college, banning valentine days etc.

"Brijesh" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:8951470d-6bb6-4435-9c15-***@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
PS: I wonder where is Shiv Sena now? Taj is now occupied by the non
marathi manus. I hope Raj does something to get rid of them now. Oh..
the commandos are also non marathis by the way. They are from "north"
Husband of All FBI n NSA Agents
2008-11-28 23:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crazy4
Marathi manoos never fights against terrorists & enemies. He is better at
driving out madrasis, driving out north indians, disallowing
rose days in college, banning valentine days etc.
PS: I wonder where is Shiv Sena now? Taj is now occupied by the non
marathi manus. I hope Raj does something to get rid of them now. Oh..
the commandos are also non marathis by the way. They are from "north"
There is nothing wrong in "PROTECTING" one's culture.

If you choose to worship foreign culture, it is your prerogative.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
2008-11-29 04:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crazy4
Marathi manoos never fights against terrorists & enemies.
Ha! Do you realize how idiotic this statement is when viewed from the
perspective of Indian history? You know, history? I mean you
couldn't possible be any stupider. :-)

But what would one expect from a coward who hides behind a fake ID
newly minted simply to respond to one thread. Cowardice is you forte,
always has been always will be. Well, you had your one moment of
glory; you actually interfaced with myself and Brijesh for a few
moments; in real life the likes of us will never have anything to do
with the likes of you. Godspeed and <plonk>.

Sanjiv Karmarkar
Villanova
2008-11-29 11:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Crazy4
Marathi manoos never fights against terrorists & enemies.
Ha! Do you realize how idiotic this statement is when viewed from the
perspective of Indian history? You know, history? I mean you
couldn't possible be any stupider. :-)
But what would one expect from a coward who hides behind a fake ID
newly minted simply to respond to one thread. Cowardice is you forte,
always has been always will be. Well, you had your one moment of
glory; you actually interfaced with myself and Brijesh for a few
moments; in real life the likes of us will never have anything to do
with the likes of you. Godspeed and <plonk>.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
This coward crazy4 aka subirwa is a self loathing pseudo-secular moron
who thinks supporting muslim terrorists makes him an intellectual.

LOL

--
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subi...@notmail.com
2008-11-29 11:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Villanova
Post by Crazy4
Marathi manoos never fights against terrorists & enemies.
Ha!  Do you realize how idiotic this statement is when viewed from the
perspective of Indian history?  You know, history?  I mean you
couldn't possible be any stupider.  :-)
But what would one expect from a coward who hides behind a fake ID
newly minted simply to respond to one thread.  Cowardice is you forte,
always has been always will be.  Well, you had your one moment of
glory; you actually interfaced with myself and Brijesh for a few
moments; in real life the likes of us will never have anything to do
with the likes of you.  Godspeed and <plonk>.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
This coward crazy4 aka subirwa is a self loathing pseudo-secular moron
who thinks supporting muslim terrorists makes him an intellectual.
LOL
--
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who is crazy4? and you think asking for genocide makes you a man? fuck
off. i am not the one who is self-loathing, you are: you seem to have
exactly the logic of those whom you hold responsible for these acts. i
am guessing you have minimal education in history and politics and
contribute money to hindutva outfits: your language suggests it. you
idiots are part of the problem: your gods modi has and advani are busy
baking bread on the fires raging in mumbai
Villanova
2008-11-29 11:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Post by Crazy4
Marathi manoos never fights against terrorists & enemies.
Ha! Do you realize how idiotic this statement is when viewed from the
perspective of Indian history? You know, history? I mean you
couldn't possible be any stupider. :-)
But what would one expect from a coward who hides behind a fake ID
newly minted simply to respond to one thread. Cowardice is you forte,
always has been always will be. Well, you had your one moment of
glory; you actually interfaced with myself and Brijesh for a few
moments; in real life the likes of us will never have anything to do
with the likes of you. Godspeed and <plonk>.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
This coward crazy4 aka subirwa is a self loathing pseudo-secular moron
who thinks supporting muslim terrorists makes him an intellectual.
LOL
--
posted viawww.usenetfast.com- Fastest downloads from $4.50/month !
who is crazy4? and you think asking for genocide makes you a man?
Pseudo-seculars like you are delusional self loathing idiots.

Show me where I asked for a genocide in this thread or apologize to me.
Post by ***@notmail.com
fuck
off. i am not the one who is self-loathing, you are: you seem to have
exactly the logic of those whom you hold responsible for these acts.
Standard argument from pseudo-secular morons' playbook.
Post by ***@notmail.com
i
am guessing you have minimal education in history and politics and
Contributing money to hindutva outfits is a crime but contributing money
to Islamic outfits is justified as per pseudo-secular morons like you.
Post by ***@notmail.com
your language suggests it. you
Writing great english automatically makes one an intellectual.

Great logic.

You are as uneducated as dubya.
Post by ***@notmail.com
your gods modi has and advani are busy
baking bread on the fires raging in mumbai
Fantastic.

Hopefully Indians will vote BJP back to power.

--
posted via www.usenetfast.com - Fastest downloads from $4.50/month !
r***@gmail.com
2008-11-29 18:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brijesh
Post by Ravi
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
According to CNN, at least 2 terrorists are British citizens and at
least one was Pakistani citizen, and there could be more.  The
mothership that was (allegedly) communicating with the terrorists was
a Pakistani ship.
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India?  Does this
not place India under attack?  Should we not be retaliating; and if
yes, how?
Believe me; I do not want a war.  I believe in economic and commercial
wars, I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past.  But do we
have a choice in this matter?  What is a nation to do when attacked?
What would the great nation of Israel do right now?  These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center.  2 Americans are dead.  And among
the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis.  Folks, this is now very very
very serious.
Incidentally, I've never been more ashamed of Shivraj Patil and
Vilasrao Deskmukh than I'm today.  I've always disliked them deeply,
but this is the last straw.  These guys claim ancestry from Shivaji,
but the way they talk and the way they act; they are among the most
cowardly people in the entire world.
Both of them blurted out more nonsense today, some BS about "terrorism
has no religion" etc.  Well, if 99% of the terrorists are Muslims,
then terrorism does have a religion.
So what exactly do you want here? Are you saying you want to brand
everyone who follows a particular religion as "terrorist"? Whats the
point here? What do you want to do next?
Mumbai had been a safe city before the 1992 madness in Ayodhya. The
reason why we are facing an attack from outside if because of these
pseudo nationalistic people who have dragged the attackers from
concentrated areas of Kashmir /northern cities to all over India now.
I hope you are not implying that the Ayodhya Babri Masjid events are
the cause for these terrorist activities. If so you are dead wrong!
These elements only need a reason to hate anything and everything that
is not Islamic to them. Once they get the folks converted to their
throwback system of belief they are not done! They still are divisive
and keep killing each other like cave people! Just look at Afghanistan
and Pakistan for proof. They would not rest until India is also
reduced to that state.

If you are really interested in finding out the cause for their hatred
of anything and everything go back in a time machine to 8th century AD
when their mentally deranged messiah started to sow the seeds of
hatred and animosity in the name of God and religion!
Post by Brijesh
Having said that, I hate the current government for being clueless
against these attacks.  But if a country like US has not been able to
flush out terrorist support from Pakistan, what chance does India
have?
This I agree. India needs better leadership who can take the issue of
securing the borders seriously and stop looking at the muslims in
India as vote banks and start with a uniform civil code first!

-Raghu
Post by Brijesh
Post by Ravi
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Sanjiv Karmarkar
and the spineless Sharad Power will organize a Terrorist Champions
League
Geico Caveman
2008-11-28 21:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
According to CNN, at least 2 terrorists are British citizens and at
least one was Pakistani citizen, and there could be more. The
mothership that was (allegedly) communicating with the terrorists was
a Pakistani ship.
More recent reports (totally unconfirmed) from terrorism-has-no-religion
Barkha Dutt's channel indicate 29 Pukis and 11 Bangles took part in the
attack. For a channel so heavily invested in pointing the finger away from
anything Pakistan or Islamist, that is a pretty unusual statement to make.
Or maybe they realize that the evidence is so damning that they risk their
existence if they continue playing these games.

Hard to say if those two Puki Brits are included in that total.
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack? Should we not be retaliating; and if
yes, how?
We should attack with plausible deniability. Hit the ISI leadership
directly. This is the only language these cannibals will understand.
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
Believe me; I do not want a war. I believe in economic and commercial
wars, I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past. But do we
For many of us. If the events of the last few days show, not for everyone.
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
have a choice in this matter? What is a nation to do when attacked?
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center. 2 Americans are dead. And among
the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis. Folks, this is now very very
very serious.
No. Its about as serious as our (mis) leadership chooses to make it.
Ordinarily, an out of touch ruling class such as ours will react only if it
is hit. To paraphrase a Forsyth novel (Icon ?) - the state will defend
itself if it feels attacked. But then we all know how the attack on
Parliament ended up.

I do not have any hopes of anything honourable from our leaders.
jzfredricks
2008-11-28 22:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack?
What the hell is a 'official' attack? One under a declaration of war?
One between to nation states? Are you asking if India and Pakistan are
now are war? Are you asking if India is at war with Pakistan AND the
UK?
Should we not be retaliating; and if yes, how?
No, you shouldn't be. Not with bombs at least. What's your military
end game?
Oh wait, I'm asking someone from one of FOUR non-NNPT countries...
I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past.  But do we
have a choice in this matter?
Ofc you have a choice.
What is a nation to do when attacked?
Ask itself 'why'. Then fuck around pretending they know the answer.
Then ask again when attacked next. Then keep asking until they really
make an effort to answer. Failing that, make more bombs and start a
war.
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center.
So?
 2 Americans are dead.  
So?
And among the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis.  
So?
Folks, this is now very very very serious.
I think we should wait till it's 'very very very VERY serious'. Until
then, anything 'we' do is an overreaction.
SultanOfSwing
2008-11-29 07:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack?
What the hell is a 'official' attack? One under a declaration of war?
One between to nation states? Are you asking if India and Pakistan are
now are war? Are you asking if India is at war with Pakistan AND the
UK?
The city of Mumbai, which is the financial hub of India was under
attack
by "Urban Jehadis", most definitely from the Lashkar-e-Toiba.
Pakistan
will of course, deny any involvement in this attack. From what I
hear,
yesterday, they agreed to send over the ISI chief to India. But
now, they
have backtracked and have agreed to send over only an ISI official
to Delhi.
Post by jzfredricks
Should we not be retaliating; and if yes, how?
No, you shouldn't be. Not with bombs at least. What's your military
end game?
Oh wait, I'm asking someone from one of FOUR non-NNPT countries...
What has this got to do with India being an non-NNPT country?
Logic
doesn't seem to be your forte. No one has spoken of exploding
nuclear bombs over Pakistan. OTOH, India only wants the LeT
(Lashkar-e-Toiba) and the JeM(Jaish-e-Mohammad), terrorist
outfits with alleged links to the Al Qaeda to be totally
dismantled.
It's not an unreasonable expectation for a country whose financial
capital has been under seige for the last 3 days.
Post by jzfredricks
I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past.  But do we
have a choice in this matter?
Ofc you have a choice.
The choice is that Pakistan should be forced to co-operate with
India to exterminate the LeT and JeM outfits on Pakistani soils.
Failing which, India should exercise the right of "hot pursuit"
across Pakistani borders to exterminate those "beasts".
Post by jzfredricks
What is a nation to do when attacked?
Ask itself 'why'. Then fuck around pretending they know the answer.
Then ask again when attacked next. Then keep asking until they really
make an effort to answer. Failing that, make more bombs and start a
war.
That was a stupis and insensitive answer. I'm sure you do not
understand
what it feels like to be a citizen of a country which has
constantly had to
face terrorist attacks in the past 1 year.
Post by jzfredricks
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center.
So?
A Jewish rabbi and his family was killed. Innocent people who's
only fault was that they were Jewish and so hated by these "beasts
of terror", who incidentally term themselves as Muslims.
Post by jzfredricks
 2 Americans are dead.  
So?
And among the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis.  
So?
Folks, this is now very very very serious.
I think we should wait till it's 'very very very VERY serious'. Until
then, anything 'we' do is an overreaction.
Oh yes. So when would you term it SERIOUS? When terrorists
get hold of a nuclear device and explode it over the city of
Mumbai? Do you advise the Indian government to wait till then?
Should they adopt a *pacifist* policy towards terrorist outfits
like
LeT(Lashkar-e-Toiba) and JeM(Jaish-e-Mohammad) ?
jzfredricks
2008-11-29 08:02:25 UTC
Permalink
   Oh yes. So when would you term it SERIOUS? When terrorists
   get hold of a nuclear device and explode it over the city of
   Mumbai? Do you advise the Indian government to wait till then?
Rolf.

You seem worried about the spread of nuclear weapons.

Tough titties. India lost the right to complain on that score a few
years ago.
SultanOfSwing
2008-11-29 08:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
   Oh yes. So when would you term it SERIOUS? When terrorists
   get hold of a nuclear device and explode it over the city of
   Mumbai? Do you advise the Indian government to wait till then?
Rolf.
You seem worried about the spread of nuclear weapons.
Tough titties. India lost the right to complain on that score a few
years ago.
So what do you advocate? That India sign the NPT (Nuclear
Non-Proliferation Treaty) and CTBT(Comprehensive Test Ban
Treaty) and become stooges of the West. No way, I don't
think any sane Indian Prime Minister would do that.

And in case, you are unaware, it is Pakistan which was
the country that clandestinely sold the technology to
create nuclear weapons to North Korea. I am pretty
sure that you have heard of Pakistani scientist A.Q.Khan.
India has *never* been involved in the proliferation of nuclear
weapons. In fact, through the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal,
we have even opened up our civilian nuclear facilities
for inspection by IAEA inspectors.
Geico Caveman
2008-11-29 09:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by SultanOfSwing
Post by jzfredricks
Post by SultanOfSwing
Oh yes. So when would you term it SERIOUS? When terrorists
get hold of a nuclear device and explode it over the city of
Mumbai? Do you advise the Indian government to wait till then?
Rolf.
You seem worried about the spread of nuclear weapons.
Tough titties. India lost the right to complain on that score a few
years ago.
So what do you advocate? That India sign the NPT (Nuclear
Non-Proliferation Treaty) and CTBT(Comprehensive Test Ban
Treaty) and become stooges of the West. No way, I don't
think any sane Indian Prime Minister would do that.
And in case, you are unaware, it is Pakistan which was
the country that clandestinely sold the technology to
create nuclear weapons to North Korea. I am pretty
sure that you have heard of Pakistani scientist A.Q.Khan.
India has *never* been involved in the proliferation of nuclear
weapons. In fact, through the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal,
we have even opened up our civilian nuclear facilities
for inspection by IAEA inspectors.
There is no need for you to justify your thoughts to this ivory tower idiot
who thinks that a piece of paper signed in a hurry 40 years ago to
specifically exclude India somehow makes a known weapon proliferator's
(China) nukes "holy" and Indian nukes "unholy".

You can bet he would be singing a different tune if more than a thousand of
his countrymen had been wiped out in less than a year by a neighbouring
country with a history of nihilistic hatred of his country.

The old paradigm of nuclear deterrence between two responsible nation states
requires precisely that - responsibility and it takes two such nations.
When one of the nuclear armed nation states indulges in brinkmanship to
such an extent that its rival has to choose between regular murders of its
citizens and risking nuclear war, all the old concepts of deterrence go
clean out of the window. For a simple reason - the country indulging in
brinkmanship is not being deterred.

Such is the nature of asymmetric warfare. The only way out of such a
situation IMO is for the aggrieved country to gradually raise the cost of
such brinkmanship to an intolerable level for the other country. If that
stops such behaviour, well and good. If not, well, then such are the
breaks.

No government, elected or not, can be expected to countenance an abandonment
of its most fundamental function - protection of its citizens. In that
sense, this is a problem of our own making. Our leadership has consistently
tried to exercise restraint (sometimes out of native incompetence, and
sometimes out of deference to the interests of other countries) in face of
such provocations. If we had followed the Chinese way of doing these
things, and had gone absolutely ape-shit (like taking out the entire ISI
leadership) when first such attacks took place, Pakistanis would think
twice before doing this.
Villanova
2008-11-29 11:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by SultanOfSwing
Post by jzfredricks
Post by SultanOfSwing
Oh yes. So when would you term it SERIOUS? When terrorists
get hold of a nuclear device and explode it over the city of
Mumbai? Do you advise the Indian government to wait till then?
Rolf.
You seem worried about the spread of nuclear weapons.
Tough titties. India lost the right to complain on that score a few
years ago.
So what do you advocate? That India sign the NPT (Nuclear
Non-Proliferation Treaty) and CTBT(Comprehensive Test Ban
Treaty) and become stooges of the West. No way, I don't
think any sane Indian Prime Minister would do that.
And in case, you are unaware, it is Pakistan which was
the country that clandestinely sold the technology to
create nuclear weapons to North Korea. I am pretty
sure that you have heard of Pakistani scientist A.Q.Khan.
India has *never* been involved in the proliferation of nuclear
weapons. In fact, through the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal,
we have even opened up our civilian nuclear facilities
for inspection by IAEA inspectors.
You are discussing complicated politics with a moron that lacks basic
logic skills.

--
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jzfredricks
2008-11-29 16:00:37 UTC
Permalink
   India has *never* been involved in the proliferation of nuclear
   weapons.
India CREATED nuke-le-ar (sic) weapons.

How the fuck can you say they weren't involved in the proliferation of
the same?

That is moronic ignorance of the highest order.
guyana
2008-11-29 16:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
   India has *never* been involved in the proliferation of nuclear
   weapons.
India CREATED nuke-le-ar (sic) weapons.
How the fuck can you say they weren't involved in the proliferation of
the same?
That is moronic ignorance of the highest order.
typical motherfucking indians, just talk and talk, the brits were
right, indians are just good in clerical work, moslem in military
ops??!! india is a turd world country!!!
SultanOfSwing
2008-11-29 19:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
   India has *never* been involved in the proliferation of nuclear
   weapons.
India CREATED nuke-le-ar (sic) weapons.
Yes, India developed nuclear weapons and first exploded a nuclear
device at Pokhran in 1974 (the so-called "Smiling Buddha Test").
The second round of nuclear testing happened again at Pokhran
in 1998. However, India has never been involved in the *spread*
of nuclear technology to rogue countries like North Korea and
Iran.
AFAIK, proliferation implies "spread". Maybe, you have some
other definition.
Post by jzfredricks
How the fuck can you say they weren't involved in the proliferation of
the same?
That is moronic ignorance of the highest order.
I have made my point about Pakistan being a proliferator. In 2003,
IAEA
unearthed a nuclear black market with close ties to Pakistan. Dr.
AQ Khan,
the "Father" of Pakistan's nuclear programme confessed on national
television to nuclear proliferation from Pakistan to Iran and North
Korea.
It's now up to *you* to prove that India was involved in nuclear
proliferation.

P.S. I'm ignoring the name-calling on your part-- The quote
"moronic ignorance
of the highest order" was unwarranted. Debate your point as lucidly
and coherently
as possible, else this will be my last post on this topic.
jzfredricks
2008-11-29 22:29:28 UTC
Permalink
   Yes, India developed nuclear weapons and first exploded a nuclear
   device at Pokhran in 1974 (the so-called "Smiling Buddha Test").
   The second round of nuclear testing happened again at Pokhran
   in 1998. However, India has never been involved in the *spread*
   of nuclear technology to rogue countries like North Korea and
Iran.
   AFAIK, proliferation implies "spread". Maybe, you have some
   other definition.
Ahh, this is getting better...

It's ok to make your own, just so long as no one *helps* you...

Would you consider reading a Tom Clancy novel 'proliferation'?

Article 2 of the NPT states;

"Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to
receive the transfer from any transferor whatsoever of nuclear weapons
or other nuclear explosive devices or of control over such weapons or
explosive devices directly, or indirectly; not to manufacture or
otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices;
and not to seek or receive any assistance in the manufacture of
nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices."

Please note "not to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons".
I have made my point about Pakistan being a proliferator.
We're talking about India.

That Pakistan is clearly worse is irrelevant. If it was relevant, just
skip Pakistan and point the finger straight at the US and say "see
what they did, we can all build bombs now".
   It's now up to *you* to prove that India was involved in nuclear
proliferation.
Did India create its own nukes, without aid from another country?
Let's assume yes, which I doubt. But anyway. Now let's pretend the
following countries did exactly the same as India;

Albania, Algeria, AmericanSamoa, Andorra, Angola, Anguilla,
Antarctica, AntiguaandBarbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Aruba,
AscensionIsland, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain,
Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bermuda,
Bhutan, Bolivia, BosniaandHerzegovina, Botswana, BouvetIsland, Brazil,
BritishVirginIslands, BritishIndianOceanTerritory, BruneiDarussalam,
Bulgaria, BurkinaFaso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, CapeVerde,
CaymanIslands, CentralAfricanRepublic, Chad, Chile, ChristmasIsland,
CocosKeeling)Island, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Republicof, Congo,
DemocraticRepublicof, CookIslands, CostaRica, Coted'Ivoire, Croatia,
Cuba, Cyprus, CzechRepublic, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica,
DominicanRepublic, Ecuador, Egypt, ElSalvador, EquatorialGuinea,
Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, FalklandIslands(Malvinas), FaroeIslands,
Fiji, Finland, FrenchGuiana, FrenchPolynesia,
FrenchSouthernTerritories, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana,
Gibraltar, Greece, Greenland, Grenada, Guadeloupe, Guam, Guatemala,
Guernsey, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti,
HeardandMcDonaldIslands, Honduras, HongKong, Hungary, Iceland,
Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, IsleofMan, Italy, Jamaica, Japan,
Jersey, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea, North, Korea,
South, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia,
Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macau, Macedonia,
Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, MarshallIslands,
Martinique, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mayotte, Mexico, Micronesia,
Moldova, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Montserrat, Morocco,
Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nauru, Nepal, Netherlands,
NetherlandsAntilles, NewCaledonia, NewZealand, Nicaragua, Niue, Niger,
Nigeria, NorfolkIsland, NorthernMarianaIslands, Norway, Oman, Palau,
PalestinianTerritory, Occupied, Panama, PapuaNewGuinea, Paraguay,
Peru, Philippines, PitcairnIsland, Poland, Portugal, PuertoRico,
Qatar, Reunion, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, SaintBarthelemy, SaintHelena,
SaintKittsandNevis, SaintLucia, SaintMartin, SaintPierreandMiquelon,
SaintVincentandtheGrenadines, Samoa, SanMarino, SaoTomeandPrincipe,
SaudiaArabia, Senegal, Serbia, Seychelles, SierraLeone, Singapore,
Slovakia, Slovenia, SolomonIslands, Somalia, SouthAfrica,
SouthGeorgiaandtheSouthSandwichIslands, Spain, SriLanka, Sudan,
Suriname, SvalbardandJanMayenIslands, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland,
Syria, Taiwan, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Timor-Leste, Togo,
Tokelau, Tonga, TrinidadandTobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan,
TurksandCaicosIslands, Tuvalu, Uganda, Ukraine, UnitedArabEmirates,
UnitedStatesVirginIslands, Uruguay, USMinorOutlyingIslands,
Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, VaticanCityState(HolySee), Venezuela, Vietnam,
WallisandFutunaIslands, WesternSahara, Yemen, Yugoslavia, Zambia and
Zimbabwe

Would you consider that the spread of nuclear weapons?
Geico Caveman
2008-11-30 00:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Post by SultanOfSwing
Yes, India developed nuclear weapons and first exploded a nuclear
device at Pokhran in 1974 (the so-called "Smiling Buddha Test").
The second round of nuclear testing happened again at Pokhran
in 1998. However, India has never been involved in the *spread*
of nuclear technology to rogue countries like North Korea and
Iran.
AFAIK, proliferation implies "spread". Maybe, you have some
other definition.
Ahh, this is getting better...
It's ok to make your own, just so long as no one *helps* you...
Ok. Then the US, UK, France, China and Russia are all proliferators.

Now go f*** yourself.
jzfredricks
2008-11-30 00:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geico Caveman
Ok. Then the US, UK, France, China and Russia are all proliferators.
Yes, they are.

And so is India.

Has a light bulb finally turned on?
Geico Caveman
2008-12-01 22:17:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Post by Geico Caveman
Ok. Then the US, UK, France, China and Russia are all proliferators.
Yes, they are.
And so is India.
Has a light bulb finally turned on?
Oh yes. Your meaning of the term (people do use it with a variety of
meanings) was not immediately clear. I assumed you had a classical western
view of the matter (Big 5's nukes holy, the rest all proliferators). My
apologies.

Basically, you have an Oppenheimer attitude towards the matter. Correct me
if I am wrong, but you then probably believe that no country should have
nukes. If so, its an idealistic, honourable view of the matter with little
relation to reality.

My view of the entire episode is based on a premise that nuclear weapons
exist, are not going away, at least for a long while, and we cannot permit
possession of such weapons become an effective shield for asymmetric
warfare such as being currently waged against India from Pakistani soil.
Its based on a firm expectation of the consequence of such inaction - that
it will one day invite acts even more perversely worse, especially given
the extremely long history of Indian restraint (criminal in my view) in
face of such provocations.

You disagree, and I understand that.
jzfredricks
2008-12-02 00:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geico Caveman
Oh yes. Your meaning of the term (people do use it with a variety of
meanings) was not immediately clear. I assumed you had a classical western
view of the matter (Big 5's nukes holy, the rest all proliferators). My
apologies.
If anyone was to spend 3 seconds thinking about it they'd naturally
come to the conclusion that creating your own nukes, without the help
of another nation state, is a Bad Thing.

If said person also knew about the NPT, they'd also work out that the
above, being a Bad Thing, should and would be covered by the NPT.

Building your own nukes is proliferation at a *world* level (ie the
world now has more nukes). Otherwise, they would have called it the
NPBYOT (Non-proliferation and building your own treaty).
Geico Caveman
2008-12-02 00:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Post by Geico Caveman
Oh yes. Your meaning of the term (people do use it with a variety of
meanings) was not immediately clear. I assumed you had a classical
western view of the matter (Big 5's nukes holy, the rest all
proliferators). My apologies.
If anyone was to spend 3 seconds thinking about it they'd naturally
come to the conclusion that creating your own nukes, without the help
of another nation state, is a Bad Thing.
It is not 3 seconds to midnight yet. Your view of the matter has been
pitched before, even by the inventors of nukes. It has for various reasons,
never found ready takers in halls of power the world over.
Post by jzfredricks
If said person also knew about the NPT, they'd also work out that the
above, being a Bad Thing, should and would be covered by the NPT.
What NPT means and what you describe are Two Very Different Things. What you
have in mind is an NET (a Nuke Elimination Treaty). I do not think it will
ever happen.
Post by jzfredricks
Building your own nukes is proliferation at a *world* level (ie the
world now has more nukes). Otherwise, they would have called it the
NPBYOT (Non-proliferation and building your own treaty).
They could have, but they did not. The inherent hypocrisy of the NPT is such
that the treaty was flawed at the start, a sort of a law enforcement pact
agreed upon by the five families of the mafia. And it was seen and will
forever be seen as a guard-your-turf and
freeze-in-your-military-superiority sort of act that my country has never
have had any time for, given that we have fought one war with one of the
big 5 (and lost - the reasons are many) in the pre-NPT era, and relations
with that power have never risen much above the freezing point.

That some of the Big 5 later participated in proliferation (both vertical
and horizontal) undermined this piece of paper for its captive audience
(namely, India, Israel and Pakistan) even further. With the conclusion of
the Indo-US nuclear deal, this farce is practically dead, never mind the
diplomatic language.

Multiple US administrations have wrecked their efforts for improved Indo-US
ties upon these rocks. That does not mean they do not mean to continue
working around the edges (like with CTBT and FMCT), but if the terms of
those treaties are seen to be as hypocritical as those for NPT, I predict
no more hopeful end for those pieces of paper either.
jzfredricks
2008-12-02 01:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by jzfredricks
If anyone was to spend 3 seconds thinking about it they'd naturally
come to the conclusion that creating your own nukes, without the help
of another nation state, is a Bad Thing.
It is not 3 seconds to midnight yet. Your view of the matter has been
pitched before, even by the inventors of nukes. It has for various reasons,
never found ready takers in halls of power the world over.
the 'anyone' refers to 'citizens', not 'administrations'.

Power corrupts; absolute power blah blah blah

The average citizen of the world doesn't want nukes, and knows that
creating them are, as I said, a Bad Thing.
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by jzfredricks
If said person also knew about the NPT, they'd also work out that the
above, being a Bad Thing, should and would be covered by the NPT.
What NPT means and what you describe are Two Very Different Things. What you
have in mind is an NET (a Nuke Elimination Treaty). I do not think it will
ever happen.
I've not talked about elimination once. I've only talked about
creating new nukes.
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by jzfredricks
Building your own nukes is proliferation at a *world* level (ie the
world now has more nukes). Otherwise, they would have called it the
NPBYOT (Non-proliferation and building your own treaty).
Yes, the NPT is flawed. Any treaty involving weapons and the US is
going to be flawed and doomed to fail, sadly. It COULD have worked,
but some countries Did The Wrong Thing.

However, it WAS the intention of the (flawed and doomed) NPT to stop
countries from building their own nukes. Hey, SAf disarmed, that's a
good thing, right?
Villanova
2008-11-29 11:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Post by SultanOfSwing
Oh yes. So when would you term it SERIOUS? When terrorists
get hold of a nuclear device and explode it over the city of
Mumbai? Do you advise the Indian government to wait till then?
Rolf.
You seem worried about the spread of nuclear weapons.
Tough titties. India lost the right to complain on that score a few
years ago.
jzfredricks,

Why dont you shut the fuckup and get back to your only expertize of
posting duck out scores and stats.

--
posted via www.usenetfast.com - Fastest downloads from $4.50/month !
subi...@notmail.com
2008-11-29 10:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack?
What the hell is a 'official' attack? One under a declaration of war?
One between to nation states? Are you asking if India and Pakistan are
now are war? Are you asking if India is at war with Pakistan AND the
UK?
Should we not be retaliating; and if yes, how?
No, you shouldn't be. Not with bombs at least. What's your military
end game?
Oh wait, I'm asking someone from one of FOUR non-NNPT countries...
I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past.  But do we
have a choice in this matter?
Ofc you have a choice.
What is a nation to do when attacked?
Ask itself 'why'. Then fuck around pretending they know the answer.
Then ask again when attacked next. Then keep asking until they really
make an effort to answer. Failing that, make more bombs and start a
war.
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center.
So?
 2 Americans are dead.  
So?
And among the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis.  
So?
Folks, this is now very very very serious.
I think we should wait till it's 'very very very VERY serious'. Until
then, anything 'we' do is an overreaction.
i agree. i know the anguish many are going through - my brother and
family were in the area earlier in the day- but let us go beyond knee-
jerk reactions to something constructive. calling entire religions
terrorist is no solution: by that count, would you agree with those
gujarati or kashmiri muslims who say that all hindus are responsible
for the violence they have faced and therefore all hindus are
legitimate targets? attacking them will only create justifications for
more such actions. so all actions short of war should be pursued.

if india has evidence it should make it public. in the past, it has
shown its evidence to the us, uk and the pakistanis but to no avail.
now it should take it to the un security council. targeted attacks
with the cooperation of the pakistani government might be another way
to explore. diplomatic pressure should be built on the pakistan govt.
and on the uk government. far too many british subjects are going
around creating mayhem across the world, and they seem to wash their
hands off by claiming that these people are of pakistani origin.
Geico Caveman
2008-11-29 11:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
if india has evidence it should make it public. in the past, it has
shown its evidence to the us, uk and the pakistanis but to no avail.
Are US, UK and Pakistan judges of the quality of evidence ? Last time I
checked you do not put the accused in the jury box, nor do you put people
dependent on them.

The evidence exists for two reasons :

1. Show Indian decision makers as to what happened, how it happened and who
was responsible.
2. To serve as proof if anyone in the international community questions any
subsequent actions decided upon by our decision makers.

Note : 2 refers to post-action justification, not an attachment for a
permission slip. Since you are fond of the UN Security Council - article 51
of the UN charter permits self defence without recourse to UN SC
resolutions.

Indian territory was violated, and Indian citizens were harmed. Legally, we
have an iron clad case should we decide to follow through.
Post by ***@notmail.com
now it should take it to the un security council. targeted attacks
Utter nonsense.

They say that you can never convince someone of anything if his livelihood
depends on that thing not being true.

1. The US has made no secret of the fact that it wants to keep the Pakistani
army engaged on the Pak-Afghan border. Fat lot of good it is doing them,
but that is what they want. Ergo, they will oppose, torpedo, question any
aggressive Indian moves even if you had confessions of ISI officers on
video tape and Jesus himself stood witness for their veracity. I do not
think you have watched much Western coverage of these events, otherwise you
would not saying things so obviously stupid.

2. The UK. Its foreign policy is made in Washington. Ref 1.

3. France. Unpredictable even at the best of times. With a relatively
pro-American President, its unlikely to break out of its European
somnolence.

4. China. Pakistan's all weather friend. Best of luck there.

5. Russia. May support us, but you need unanimity in the SC to get anything
done.

And that "anything" is ? A few "strong" words of condemnation. Gee, we can
do that ourselves. You have to be out of your mind to think that the UN is
going to send in a military force to root out ISI-LeT types. Even when the
UN does intervene militarily, its mandate is so crippled that it does
nothing useful.

The SC is a debating society paralyzed by the competing agendas of its
permanent 5, nothing more. The "legitimacy" it grudgingly grants to US
actions is usually after the fact, not before.
Post by ***@notmail.com
with the cooperation of the pakistani government might be another way
to explore. diplomatic pressure should be built on the pakistan govt.
That should go down well.

If the PA is the government, not going to happen.
If the Gilani-Zardari marasi party is the government, it does not have any
real power.

Take your pick.
Post by ***@notmail.com
and on the uk government. far too many british subjects are going
around creating mayhem across the world, and they seem to wash their
hands off by claiming that these people are of pakistani origin.
An infection they must have picked from your beloved Pakis.

The bottom line is - this is our problem. And you have to be on something
significantly stronger than coffee if you think anyone else is going to
either solve it for us or even help us, no matter how many statements or
demarches you get.
subi...@notmail.com
2008-11-29 12:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by ***@notmail.com
if india has evidence it should make it public. in the past, it has
shown its evidence to the us, uk and the pakistanis but to no avail.
Are US, UK and Pakistan judges of the quality of evidence ? Last time I
checked you do not put the accused in the jury box, nor do you put people
dependent on them.
no, they are not judges of evidence. that is precisely my point: the
indians have wasted time trying to convince them.
Post by Geico Caveman
1. Show Indian decision makers as to what happened, how it happened and who
was responsible.
did not follow: how is this a reason?
Post by Geico Caveman
2. To serve as proof if anyone in the international community questions any
subsequent actions decided upon by our decision makers.
cannot follow: how is this a reason?
Post by Geico Caveman
Note : 2 refers to post-action justification, not an attachment for a
permission slip. Since you are fond of the UN Security Council - article 51
of the UN charter permits self defence without recourse to UN SC
resolutions.
i am not asking for un resolutions: this will bypass the usual indian
practice of going to the us with proof, as the bjp has always done.
Post by Geico Caveman
Indian territory was violated, and Indian citizens were harmed. Legally, we
have an iron clad case should we decide to follow through.
yes, but who are you going to attack? just carpet bomb pakistan? that
is hardly going to make india secure.
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by ***@notmail.com
now it should take it to the un security council. targeted attacks
Utter nonsense.
They say that you can never convince someone of anything if his livelihood
depends on that thing not being true.
1. The US has made no secret of the fact that it wants to keep the Pakistani
army engaged on the Pak-Afghan border. Fat lot of good it is doing them,
but that is what they want. Ergo, they will oppose, torpedo, question any
aggressive Indian moves even if you had confessions of ISI officers on
video tape and Jesus himself stood witness for their veracity. I do not
think you have watched much Western coverage of these events, otherwise you
would not saying things so obviously stupid.
ok, so they just go and drop a bunch on bombs on pakistan? unless the
pakisani authorities cooperate, you won't know where to target your
attacks. that is my point.
Post by Geico Caveman
2. The UK. Its foreign policy is made in Washington. Ref 1.
so let us attack washington?
Post by Geico Caveman
3. France. Unpredictable even at the best of times. With a relatively
pro-American President, its unlikely to break out of its European
somnolence.
so the un has no credibility? that is cheney-thinking.
Post by Geico Caveman
4. China. Pakistan's all weather friend. Best of luck there.
china is itself facing similar groups in the western regions, and has
asked for india to join a security arrangement. it is the bjp that
rejected it because they are communist.
Post by Geico Caveman
5. Russia. May support us, but you need unanimity in the SC to get anything
done.
yes, they destroyed chechnya, finished off grozny. the world watched.
that is what you want india to do, no doubt.
Post by Geico Caveman
And that "anything" is ? A few "strong" words of condemnation. Gee, we can
do that ourselves. You have to be out of your mind to think that the UN is
going to send in a military force to root out ISI-LeT types. Even when the
UN does intervene militarily, its mandate is so crippled that it does
nothing useful.
look you are angry and so am i, but there is no need to put words in
my mouth, i never said that un troops should be sent. i said that the
only way in which an indian strike would be legitimate is is a) there
is incontrovertible evidence and b) the strikes are targeted, not
generalised.
Post by Geico Caveman
The SC is a debating society paralyzed by the competing agendas of its
permanent 5, nothing more. The "legitimacy" it grudgingly grants to US
actions is usually after the fact, not before.
again, is it better to have an effective un or to destroy it? you seem
to be suggesting the latter.
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by ***@notmail.com
with the cooperation of the pakistani government might be another way
to explore. diplomatic pressure should be built on the pakistan govt.
That should go down well.
If the PA is the government, not going to happen.
If the Gilani-Zardari marasi party is the government, it does not have any
real power.
Take your pick.
so just go and start firing and bombing indiscriminately? good plan to
curb terrorism.
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by ***@notmail.com
and on the uk government. far too many british subjects are going
around creating mayhem across the world, and they seem to wash their
hands off by claiming that these people are of pakistani origin.
An infection they must have picked from your beloved Pakis.
yes, i have a lot of affection for a lot of pakisanis, and i certainly
do not want another war with pakistan which won't solve anything,
indeed will make matters worse.
Post by Geico Caveman
The bottom line is - this is our problem. And you have to be on something
significantly stronger than coffee if you think anyone else is going to
either solve it for us or even help us, no matter how many statements or
demarches you get.
if the world was so simple, why didn't your beloved hindutva types
attack pakistan when they were in power? who was stopping them. you
have to think which actions will be effective in curbing terror
attacks in india. all your solutions only will exacerbate and
legitimate such attacks.
Geico Caveman
2008-11-29 21:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
Are US, UK and Pakistan judges of the quality of evidence ? Last time I
checked you do not put the accused in the jury box, nor do you put people
dependent on them.
no, they are not judges of evidence. that is precisely my point: the
indians have wasted time trying to convince them.
Good. We agree on this.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
1. Show Indian decision makers as to what happened, how it happened and
who was responsible.
did not follow: how is this a reason?
If your decision makers do not know precisely how this happened, how the
hell are they going to come up with an effective response ?
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
2. To serve as proof if anyone in the international community questions
any subsequent actions decided upon by our decision makers.
cannot follow: how is this a reason?
You cannot simply attack targets inside another country just because you
feel like it. If some country (probably Pakistan+China) later tries to
condemn India for aggression, that evidence would help in shutting their
traps.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
Note : 2 refers to post-action justification, not an attachment for a
permission slip. Since you are fond of the UN Security Council - article
51 of the UN charter permits self defence without recourse to UN SC
resolutions.
i am not asking for un resolutions: this will bypass the usual indian
practice of going to the us with proof, as the bjp has always done.
Not just BJP. The Congress did the same thing post 1993 and before that when
we were shouting ourselves hoarse over Paki involvement in Kashmir
militancy.

None of our leaders are clean on this respect.

About the only people who have not done this are the commies, but they and
their jholawala fellow-travellers are fast friends of the root-causes
school of "patriotism". In any case, they take their orders from Beijing.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
Indian territory was violated, and Indian citizens were harmed. Legally,
we have an iron clad case should we decide to follow through.
yes, but who are you going to attack? just carpet bomb pakistan? that
is hardly going to make india secure.
Who said anything about carpet bombing Pakistan ? The vast majority of
Pakistanis are utterly innocent of this outrage. Why would you want to kill
them ? Just to feel your dick is a few cms longer than it actually is ?
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by ***@notmail.com
now it should take it to the un security council. targeted attacks
Utter nonsense.
They say that you can never convince someone of anything if his
livelihood depends on that thing not being true.
1. The US has made no secret of the fact that it wants to keep the
Pakistani army engaged on the Pak-Afghan border. Fat lot of good it is
doing them, but that is what they want. Ergo, they will oppose, torpedo,
question any aggressive Indian moves even if you had confessions of ISI
officers on video tape and Jesus himself stood witness for their
veracity. I do not think you have watched much Western coverage of these
events, otherwise you would not saying things so obviously stupid.
ok, so they just go and drop a bunch on bombs on pakistan? unless the
pakisani authorities cooperate, you won't know where to target your
attacks. that is my point.
I fail to understand your obsession with carpet bombing Pakistan.

For the last sentence - see reason 1 above. And newsflash - Paki authorities
are not going to cooperate. They will make a big song and dance of doing
so, but we will be wasting our time with them. If we know who did it, we
should take those targets out.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
2. The UK. Its foreign policy is made in Washington. Ref 1.
so let us attack washington?
I take it you are drunk. I have not seen anyone claim that the US was behind
these attacks.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
3. France. Unpredictable even at the best of times. With a relatively
pro-American President, its unlikely to break out of its European
somnolence.
so the un has no credibility? that is cheney-thinking.
Even a broken clock is right twice in 24 hours. Same goes for Cheney.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
4. China. Pakistan's all weather friend. Best of luck there.
china is itself facing similar groups in the western regions, and has
asked for india to join a security arrangement. it is the bjp that
rejected it because they are communist.
China's strategic relationship with Pakistan is decades old, they have a
vested interest in containing us, and violence in Sinkiang is nowhere close
to making life difficult for them. The Chinese have a rather effective
strategy of dealing with such matters - they simply go in and do something
equivalent to your favourite tactic of carpet bombing and wholesale
resettlement of troublesome regions. None of which a democratic country
like ours can emulate. We do not even allow non-Kashmiri Indians to buy
land in J & K. Go figure.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
5. Russia. May support us, but you need unanimity in the SC to get
anything done.
yes, they destroyed chechnya, finished off grozny. the world watched.
that is what you want india to do, no doubt.
If you want to express your wet dreams and fantasies, write a book. It might
even make you some money.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
And that "anything" is ? A few "strong" words of condemnation. Gee, we
can do that ourselves. You have to be out of your mind to think that the
UN is going to send in a military force to root out ISI-LeT types. Even
when the UN does intervene militarily, its mandate is so crippled that it
does nothing useful.
look you are angry and so am i, but there is no need to put words in
my mouth, i never said that un troops should be sent. i said that the
You spoke about going to UNSC. Not me. What would be the purpose of going
there given that it is lined with Mr. Vested Interest, Mr. Lackey, Mr.
Unpredictable, Mr. Rival and Mr. Friend, all of whom have to agree (or at
least not disagree) to do anything ?
Post by ***@notmail.com
only way in which an indian strike would be legitimate is is a) there
is incontrovertible evidence and b) the strikes are targeted, not
generalised.
Which is precisely my position, with us being the sole judges of the quality
of evidence.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
The SC is a debating society paralyzed by the competing agendas of its
permanent 5, nothing more. The "legitimacy" it grudgingly grants to US
actions is usually after the fact, not before.
again, is it better to have an effective un or to destroy it? you seem
to be suggesting the latter.
Neither. The UN is structured to be ineffective. You gain nothing by using
it or destroying it. Let this anachronism of 1950s die its slow gradual
death.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by ***@notmail.com
with the cooperation of the pakistani government might be another way
to explore. diplomatic pressure should be built on the pakistan govt.
That should go down well.
If the PA is the government, not going to happen.
If the Gilani-Zardari marasi party is the government, it does not have
any real power.
Take your pick.
so just go and start firing and bombing indiscriminately? good plan to
curb terrorism.
Your fantasies, not mine.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
Post by ***@notmail.com
and on the uk government. far too many british subjects are going
around creating mayhem across the world, and they seem to wash their
hands off by claiming that these people are of pakistani origin.
An infection they must have picked from your beloved Pakis.
yes, i have a lot of affection for a lot of pakisanis, and i certainly
do not want another war with pakistan which won't solve anything,
indeed will make matters worse.
If you think this is not war already, please define what you think peacetime
looks like.
jzfredricks
2008-11-29 22:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geico Caveman
I fail to understand your obsession with carpet bombing Pakistan.
They started it!

Or was it the Persians?

Whoever it was, damn them and Rugs-a-Million...
subi...@notmail.com
2008-11-29 23:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geico Caveman
If you think this is not war already, please define what you think peacetime
looks like.
if you think this is war, please tell me what happened in iraq,
vietnam, ww2 etc. this is bad enough but please keep things in
perspective.
Geico Caveman
2008-11-30 00:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Geico Caveman
If you think this is not war already, please define what you think
peacetime looks like.
if you think this is war, please tell me what happened in iraq,
War is defined as breakdown of peacetime. Killing of large numbers of people
(including civilians), property destruction, violation of sovereignty, etc.
are symptoms of war. Terrorism is a specific form of war directed against
civilians of a democratic society (in an authoritarian system, terrorism
has no effect by definition) carried out to effect political or social
change through exertion of illegitimate force. When terrorism is married to
the foreign policy of a country, it is indistinguishable from war between
nation states except in one respect - its perpetrators, once captured,
cannot be covered by the Geneva Convention.
Post by ***@notmail.com
vietnam, ww2 etc. this is bad enough but please keep things in
perspective.
Who said wars have to look alike ? WW2 differs from Vietnam in so many ways
that its pointless to list the differences. Yet, both are correctly called
wars. As is this war against our people.
Villanova
2008-11-29 11:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by jzfredricks
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack?
What the hell is a 'official' attack? One under a declaration of war?
One between to nation states? Are you asking if India and Pakistan are
now are war? Are you asking if India is at war with Pakistan AND the
UK?
Should we not be retaliating; and if yes, how?
No, you shouldn't be. Not with bombs at least. What's your military
end game?
Oh wait, I'm asking someone from one of FOUR non-NNPT countries...
I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past. But do we
have a choice in this matter?
Ofc you have a choice.
What is a nation to do when attacked?
Ask itself 'why'. Then fuck around pretending they know the answer.
Then ask again when attacked next. Then keep asking until they really
make an effort to answer. Failing that, make more bombs and start a
war.
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center.
So?
2 Americans are dead.
So?
And among the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis.
So?
Folks, this is now very very very serious.
I think we should wait till it's 'very very very VERY serious'. Until
then, anything 'we' do is an overreaction.
i agree. i know the anguish many are going through - my brother and
family were in the area earlier in the day-
Who cares about your brother and family. They are prolly as self
loathing idiots as you are.
Post by ***@notmail.com
but let us go beyond knee-
jerk reactions to something constructive. calling entire religions
terrorist is no solution: by that count, would you agree with those
gujarati or kashmiri muslims who say that all hindus are responsible
for the violence they have faced and therefore all hindus are
legitimate targets?
Hindus in Gujarat retaliated to the muslim terrorists burning of the train.

Kashmiri muslims faced violence because of their fellow pakistani muslim
terrorists.
Post by ***@notmail.com
attacking them will only create justifications for
more such actions. so all actions short of war should be pursued.
if india has evidence it should make it public. in the past, it has
shown its evidence to the us, uk and the pakistanis but to no avail.
Which implies India has to take action on its own.
Post by ***@notmail.com
now it should take it to the un security council. targeted attacks
with the cooperation of the pakistani government might be another way
to explore.
Fuckwit......you said India showed evidence to Pak to no avail and then
you are arguing India should get Pakistani government cooperation.

Your brain is one confused pile of shit.
Post by ***@notmail.com
diplomatic pressure should be built on the pakistan govt.
Yep....it worked for the last 60 years. It will work in the future.

You forgot to suggest hindus should give up India to Pakistan and jump
into Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea ?

LOL
Post by ***@notmail.com
and on the uk government. far too many british subjects are going
around creating mayhem across the world, and they seem to wash their
hands off by claiming that these people are of pakistani origin.
What difference does it make if the MUSLIM TERRORISTS are of Pakistani
or British Origin ?

You must be the head spinmeister of all pseudo-secular Indians.


--
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subi...@notmail.com
2008-11-29 16:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Villanova
Who cares about your brother and family. They are prolly as self
loathing idiots as you are.
spoken like a terrorist. my wife lost a college friend (the food
critic), and another friend lost a niece (wife of the taj general
manager). do you only care if hindu fundamentalists get killed?
secular people have no right to live?
Post by Villanova
Hindus in Gujarat retaliated to the muslim terrorists burning of the train.
have you seen the tehelka expose of who was involved in the massacres
that followed? modi, babu bajrangi, togadia et al went off scott free.
advani: his rath yatra sparked massacres all along its route:now he
might become prime minister.1993 mumbai: shiv sena murderers go off
scott free, despite sri krishna commission report. when people like
you cheer on the massacres of muslims and the murderers go scott free,
you have no right to talk about security. i am very happy to see the
revulsion in bombay against modi and advani who were calling for the
head of harish karkare only hours before. apparently rss shakhas
celebrated the news of his killing. how dare shits like you claim to
be outraged now?
Post by Villanova
Kashmiri muslims faced violence because of their fellow pakistani muslim
terrorists.
so punish the kashmiris for what the pakistani muslim terrorists are
doing? they should make you national security adviser.
don't forget that india reneged on its obligations to the un, the
indian central governments imposed president's rule every time
kashmiris elected a government at odds with new delhi through the
1970s and 1980s, and because idiots like you supported the
militarisation of the problem instead of dealing with it politically
at an earlier period.
Post by Villanova
Post by ***@notmail.com
attacking them will only create justifications for
more such actions. so all actions short of war should be pursued.
if india has evidence it should make it public. in the past, it has
shown its evidence to the us, uk and the pakistanis but to no avail.
Which implies India has to take action on its own.
i am afraid that is not possible in the current configuration of world
politics.
Post by Villanova
Post by ***@notmail.com
now it should take it to the un security council. targeted attacks
with the cooperation of the pakistani government might be another way
to explore.
Fuckwit......you said India showed evidence to Pak to no avail and then
you are arguing India should get Pakistani government cooperation.
Your brain is one confused pile of shit.
the most effective way for india to stop cross border terror attacks,
which are not directed by the pakistani government but some elements
within it, is to work with the pakistani govt. india does not have
human intelligence on the ground to identify who, what, here, how and
when. if you cannot understand it, i don't think you have a brain.
when india showed that evidence the situation was different in
pakistan: pre-9/11, during military dictatorships, and when the isi
had a lot more power than it does now.
Post by Villanova
Yep....it worked for the last 60 years. It will work in the future.
and the wars, acquisition of nuclear weapons, and the disappearance
and murder of 10s of 1000s of kashmiris, and the military occupation
of kashmir: that has worked really well.
Post by Villanova
You forgot to suggest hindus should give up India to Pakistan and jump
into Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea ?
what purpose will that serve? perhaps those involved ALL terror
attacks, including those in kandhamal and malegaon, can take your lead
and jump into the sea.
Post by Villanova
What difference does it make if the MUSLIM TERRORISTS are of Pakistani
or British Origin ?
if you don't know that, where and who will you attack?
Post by Villanova
You must be the head spinmeister of all pseudo-secular Indians.
coming from someone like you, i take that as a compliment.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
2008-11-29 18:05:46 UTC
Permalink
apparently rss shakhas celebrated the news of his killing.
I know from the first hand experience that this is not true. We know
his family, and a fairly large section of his family used to be very
active in the erstwhile Jan Sangh. I know that there have been folks
who were angry at him, but that’s just a small minority. Most Indians
simply want justice served - in every case.
the most effective way for india to stop cross border terror attacks,
which are not directed by the pakistani government but some elements
within it, is to work with the pakistani govt.
Looking at the history of last 60 years and looking at what transpired
in the last 2 years, why would people like you still believe that
Pakistani Government would have even an iota of interest in helping
India? If anything, their interest is served by creating instability
in India. First, that would bring India down to their level and
second, that would distract their populace from the sins and
corruptions of their own government. This is the root cause of our
problem, people like you who actually believe that Pakistani
government would have any interest in helping us out have been in
power for most of the last 60 years.
india does not have
human intelligence on the ground to identify who, what, here, how and
when.
So build one then. What's stopping your kin in power from doing so?
At 9/11, the intelligence infrastructure in the US was a disaster.
They have made excellent strides since then. Of course, they have
made many mistakes, but net-net it's been a success; we've not had a
single terrorist attack since 9/11.

All you want to do is blame others. How about doing something on your
own? After all, you've been in power for most of past 60 years. All
you have ever done is call everyone that opposes your extreme
kowtowing as extremists. That may be the easy way out, but that’s
just being lazy and shucking your own responsibilities. If you don’t
make any attempts to perform your primary duty – protect your
citizens, then when the extremists come to power it’s you who takes
the brunt of the blame.

Sanjiv Karmarkar
Villanova
2008-12-02 11:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
Who cares about your brother and family. They are prolly as self
loathing idiots as you are.
spoken like a terrorist. my wife lost a college friend (the food
critic), and another friend lost a niece (wife of the taj general
manager). do you only care if hindu fundamentalists get killed?
secular people have no right to live?
Moron,

I do not care about your personal grievances and personal losses in Taj
Mahal incident.

I am only interested in finding a solution to the fucking Islamic
Terrrorism problem in India.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
Hindus in Gujarat retaliated to the muslim terrorists burning of the train.
have you seen the tehelka expose of who was involved in the massacres
that followed? modi, babu bajrangi, togadia et al went off scott free.
advani: his rath yatra sparked massacres all along its route:now he
might become prime minister.1993 mumbai: shiv sena murderers go off
scott free, despite sri krishna commission report. when people like
you cheer on the massacres of muslims and the murderers go scott free,
you have no right to talk about security. i am very happy to see the
revulsion in bombay against modi and advani who were calling for the
head of harish karkare only hours before. apparently rss shakhas
celebrated the news of his killing. how dare shits like you claim to
be outraged now?
I will be completely honest with you. I did not even read the shit you
wrote above.

I have NO time to read the standard SPIN shit from muslim terrorist
loving and hindu hating idiots like you.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
Kashmiri muslims faced violence because of their fellow pakistani muslim
terrorists.
so punish the kashmiris for what the pakistani muslim terrorists are
doing? they should make you national security adviser.
They should.

Because I am the only Indian that has the balls to fight the Islamic
terrorists and put them in their places.
Post by ***@notmail.com
don't forget that india reneged on its obligations to the un, the
indian central governments imposed president's rule every time
kashmiris elected a government at odds with new delhi through the
1970s and 1980s, and because idiots like you supported the
militarisation of the problem instead of dealing with it politically
at an earlier period.
Fuck UN and Fuck you and the rest of the Muslim apologists.

You hindu hating morons regurgitate the same useless shit every second
of your pathetic lives.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
Post by ***@notmail.com
attacking them will only create justifications for
more such actions. so all actions short of war should be pursued.
if india has evidence it should make it public. in the past, it has
shown its evidence to the us, uk and the pakistanis but to no avail.
Which implies India has to take action on its own.
i am afraid that is not possible in the current configuration of world
politics.
Post by Villanova
Post by ***@notmail.com
now it should take it to the un security council. targeted attacks
with the cooperation of the pakistani government might be another way
to explore.
Fuckwit......you said India showed evidence to Pak to no avail and then
you are arguing India should get Pakistani government cooperation.
Your brain is one confused pile of shit.
the most effective way for india to stop cross border terror attacks,
which are not directed by the pakistani government but some elements
within it, is to work with the pakistani govt. india does not have
human intelligence on the ground to identify who, what, here, how and
when. if you cannot understand it, i don't think you have a brain.
when india showed that evidence the situation was different in
pakistan: pre-9/11, during military dictatorships, and when the isi
had a lot more power than it does now.
Post by Villanova
Yep....it worked for the last 60 years. It will work in the future.
and the wars, acquisition of nuclear weapons, and the disappearance
and murder of 10s of 1000s of kashmiris, and the military occupation
of kashmir: that has worked really well.
Kashmir is integral part of India.

If Muslims want a separate kashmir, then all Indian muslims should go
and settle in Pakistan and Kashmir and make the ORIGINAL SEPARATION
"COMPLETE". Then I will have no problem if India gives up Kashmir to
Muslims.

As simple as that.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
You forgot to suggest hindus should give up India to Pakistan and jump
into Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea ?
what purpose will that serve? perhaps those involved ALL terror
attacks, including those in kandhamal and malegaon, can take your lead
and jump into the sea.
Your brain is a confused pile of shit. Your arguments have no logic, no
beginning, no end, nothing whatsoever.

You will keep jumping from one issue to anther irrelevant one like an
immature teenager.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
What difference does it make if the MUSLIM TERRORISTS are of Pakistani
or British Origin ?
if you don't know that, where and who will you attack?
LeT and JeM.

Idiot.
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by Villanova
You must be the head spinmeister of all pseudo-secular Indians.
coming from someone like you, i take that as a compliment.
I never spin. Get that into your thick skull.

You are a danger to the Indian society. I really wish you were in Taj
Mahal on that day.


--
posted via www.usenetfast.com - Fastest downloads from $4.50/month !
jzfredricks
2008-11-29 15:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by jzfredricks
I think we should wait till it's 'very very very VERY serious'. Until
then, anything 'we' do is an overreaction.
calling entire religions
terrorist is no solution: by that count, would you agree with those
gujarati or kashmiri muslims who say that all hindus are responsible
for the violence they have faced and therefore all hindus are
legitimate targets? attacking them will only create justifications for
more such actions. so all actions short of war should be pursued.
Sorry, I've no idea who or what the gujarati/kashmiri have said or
done.

Blaming a group, for its actions or words, is pretty much pointless.
One nation state, ie India, can't 'go to war' with that particular
group, even if it is *totally* justified. Going to war would just be a
pointless escalation of violence, one that has been tried for 100,000
years, to no avail. War leads to war, leads to war, leads to war.

Why are we waiting for a nuclear suitcase bomb before we sit down and
talk? How many people have to die before we say 'enough is enough'.

My main beef with all this is 200+ people get killed by gun fire, and
we all have a 'waaaaaa, sydney' moment (my attempt to keep this
cricket related)(please ignore this remark), yet we all turn a blind
eye, day after day, and so very easily, to the 20000+ people children
who die of malnutrition each and every day.

We are all hypocrites of the worst kind.
guyana
2008-11-29 23:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by jzfredricks
I think we should wait till it's 'very very very VERY serious'. Until
then, anything 'we' do is an overreaction.
calling entire religions
terrorist is no solution: by that count, would you agree with those
gujarati or kashmiri muslims who say that all hindus are responsible
for the violence they have faced and therefore all hindus are
legitimate targets? attacking them will only create justifications for
more such actions. so all actions short of war should be pursued.
Sorry, I've no idea who or what the gujarati/kashmiri have said or
done.
Blaming a group, for its actions or words, is pretty much pointless.
One nation state, ie India, can't 'go to war' with that particular
group, even if it is *totally* justified. Going to war would just be a
pointless escalation of violence, one that has been tried for 100,000
years, to no avail. War leads to war, leads to war, leads to war.
Why are we waiting for a nuclear suitcase bomb before we sit down and
talk? How many people have to die before we say 'enough is enough'.
My main beef with all this is 200+ people get killed by gun fire, and
we all have a 'waaaaaa, sydney' moment (my attempt to keep this
cricket related)(please ignore this remark), yet we all turn a blind
eye, day after day, and so very easily, to the 20000+ people children
who die of malnutrition each and every day.
We are all hypocrites of the worst kind.
you are one fuckface pussy shit moron benji babu!!
billions of dollars of damage, 100s killed and you are waiting to be
convinced to retaliate??
jzfredricks
2008-11-30 00:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by guyana
you are one fuckface pussy shit moron benji babu!!
billions of dollars of damage, 100s killed and you are waiting to be
convinced to retaliate??
Yes.
Geico Caveman
2008-11-30 00:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by guyana
you are one fuckface pussy shit moron benji babu!!
billions of dollars of damage, 100s killed and you are waiting to be
convinced to retaliate??
He is not waiting to be convinced to retaliate. If it were his country that
was attacked, he would be in the front row of a nuke-them-now rally.

What he leaves unsaid is that an Indian retaliation will be inconvenient for
him (increased oil prices due to speculators and geopolitical instability,
greater chance of the West getting hit as these ISI pigs start plying their
trade elsewhere after getting bloodied up where it hurts, etc.).

He does not give a flying f**k about Indian civilians getting killed. We are
nothing but refuse bags for him, expected to die quietly so that Western
civilians don't have to. Nothing strange about it - its human nature.
jzfredricks
2008-11-30 01:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geico Caveman
He is not waiting to be convinced to retaliate. If it were his country that
was attacked, he would be in the front row of a nuke-them-now rally.
clearly not
Post by Geico Caveman
What he leaves unsaid is that an Indian retaliation will be inconvenient for
him (increased oil prices due to speculators and geopolitical instability,
greater chance of the West getting hit as these ISI pigs start plying their
trade elsewhere after getting bloodied up where it hurts, etc.).
India doesn't have the will, nor the ability, to successfully
retaliate. Emphasis on 'successfully'.

Oil prices don't bother me. Triple them for all I care. Don't stop at
x3. My wallet can absorb a heck of a lot more than that. Oil is
cheap.
Post by Geico Caveman
He does not give a flying f**k about Indian civilians getting killed. We are
nothing but refuse bags for him, expected to die quietly so that Western
civilians don't have to. Nothing strange about it - its human nature.
You're right. I basically don't give a fuck about the 200 or so people
who died, just like I didn't give a fuck about the ~4k 9/11 victims.
Sure, it's very sad that it happened, and I wish it hadn't, but I find
the hypocrisy just too much. How can we let ourselves get whipped into
a media-driven frenzy over 200 murders and turn a blind eye to 30,000
people dying each and every day, 2/3rds of them children, to
malnutrition?
Sanjiv Karmarkar
2008-11-30 17:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
You're right. I basically don't give a fuck about the 200 or so people
... How can we let ourselves get whipped into
a media-driven frenzy over 200 murders and turn a blind eye to 30,000
people dying each and every day, 2/3rds of them children, to malnutrition?
This last statement of yours demonstrates what an intellectual cretin
you are. For, if you cannot see the direct connection between this
attack and the economy in general, you know less about the socio-
economic principles that my 12 year old niece.

I am personally involved in a very successful non-religious charity
that donates millions each year to start and sustain micro-businesses
in India. As a matter of fact, it's not even a charity; it's really a
source of seed-money. Cuz the solution to the problems in India that
you condescendingly allude to lies in free enterprise and allowing
India's great entrepreneurial spirit to succeed. If you don't
understand the simple concept that these attacks didn’t just kill 200
people, they stifle the economic progress that will ultimately solve
those problems, then you should really shut up, go hit some books, and
then come back.

Look; everyone - except perhaps you - knows that you are not terribly
smart. We read you with amusement because you are unwittingly funny.
But when you start giving advise to people about politics and economy
while understanding next to nothing about the geo-political
complexities of this world, then you cross a line; you stop being
merely amusing, you cross into being abusive.

Sanjiv Karmarkar
jzfredricks
2008-11-30 23:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
If you don't
understand the simple concept that these attacks didn’t just kill 200
people, they stifle the economic progress that will ultimately solve
those problems, then you should really shut up, go hit some books, and
then come back.
And which similar attacks lead to today's 30k dying per day? 9/11?
Madrid? London? IRA bombings? Back further than that? What 'magical'
event/s stifled the world's economies so much that it indirectly lead
to 30k people dying per day from malnutrition.
guyana
2008-11-30 19:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Post by Geico Caveman
He is not waiting to be convinced to retaliate. If it were his country that
was attacked, he would be in the front row of a nuke-them-now rally.
clearly not
Post by Geico Caveman
What he leaves unsaid is that an Indian retaliation will be inconvenient for
him (increased oil prices due to speculators and geopolitical instability,
greater chance of the West getting hit as these ISI pigs start plying their
trade elsewhere after getting bloodied up where it hurts, etc.).
India doesn't have the will, nor the ability, to successfully
retaliate. Emphasis on 'successfully'.
Oil prices don't bother me. Triple them for all I care. Don't stop at
x3. My wallet can absorb a heck of a lot more than that. Oil is
cheap.
Post by Geico Caveman
He does not give a flying f**k about Indian civilians getting killed. We are
nothing but refuse bags for him, expected to die quietly so that Western
civilians don't have to. Nothing strange about it - its human nature.
You're right. I basically don't give a fuck about the 200 or so people
who died, just like I didn't give a fuck about the ~4k 9/11 victims.
Sure, it's very sad that it happened, and I wish it hadn't, but I find
the hypocrisy just too much. How can we let ourselves get whipped into
a media-driven frenzy over 200 murders and turn a blind eye to 30,000
people dying each and every day, 2/3rds of them children, to
malnutrition?
Give a fuck if they kill your family fuckface??
Villanova
2008-12-02 11:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by jzfredricks
Post by ***@notmail.com
Post by jzfredricks
I think we should wait till it's 'very very very VERY serious'. Until
then, anything 'we' do is an overreaction.
calling entire religions
terrorist is no solution: by that count, would you agree with those
gujarati or kashmiri muslims who say that all hindus are responsible
for the violence they have faced and therefore all hindus are
legitimate targets? attacking them will only create justifications for
more such actions. so all actions short of war should be pursued.
Sorry, I've no idea who or what the gujarati/kashmiri have said or
done.
Blaming a group, for its actions or words, is pretty much pointless.
One nation state, ie India, can't 'go to war' with that particular
group, even if it is *totally* justified. Going to war would just be a
pointless escalation of violence, one that has been tried for 100,000
years, to no avail. War leads to war, leads to war, leads to war.
Why are we waiting for a nuclear suitcase bomb before we sit down and
talk? How many people have to die before we say 'enough is enough'.
My main beef with all this is 200+ people get killed by gun fire, and
we all have a 'waaaaaa, sydney' moment (my attempt to keep this
cricket related)(please ignore this remark), yet we all turn a blind
eye, day after day, and so very easily, to the 20000+ people children
who die of malnutrition each and every day.
We are all hypocrites of the worst kind.
Give all your money to the third world countries. They will improve
nutrition.

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Jellore
2008-11-29 01:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
According to CNN, at least 2 terrorists are British citizens and at
least one was Pakistani citizen, and there could be more.  The
mothership that was (allegedly) communicating with the terrorists was
a Pakistani ship.
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India?  Does this
not place India under attack?  Should we not be retaliating; and if
yes, how?
Believe me; I do not want a war.  I believe in economic and commercial
wars, I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past.  But do we
have a choice in this matter?  What is a nation to do when attacked?
What would the great nation of Israel do right now?  These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center.  2 Americans are dead.  And among
the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis.  Folks, this is now very very
very serious.
Incidentally, I've never been more ashamed of Shivraj Patil and
Vilasrao Deskmukh than I'm today.  I've always disliked them deeply,
but this is the last straw.  These guys claim ancestry from Shivaji,
but the way they talk and the way they act; they are among the most
cowardly people in the entire world.
Both of them blurted out more nonsense today, some BS about "terrorism
has no religion" etc.  Well, if 99% of the terrorists are Muslims,
then terrorism does have a religion.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
"99% of the terrorists are Muslims"

What is your source for this ?
Villanova
2008-11-29 11:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jellore
Post by Sanjiv Karmarkar
According to CNN, at least 2 terrorists are British citizens and at
least one was Pakistani citizen, and there could be more. The
mothership that was (allegedly) communicating with the terrorists was
a Pakistani ship.
Tell me something, why is not an official attack on India? Does this
not place India under attack? Should we not be retaliating; and if
yes, how?
Believe me; I do not want a war. I believe in economic and commercial
wars, I feel that arm-wars should be a thing of the past. But do we
have a choice in this matter? What is a nation to do when attacked?
What would the great nation of Israel do right now? These animals
killed 7 Jews at the Jewish center. 2 Americans are dead. And among
the perpetrators are Brits and Pakis. Folks, this is now very very
very serious.
Incidentally, I've never been more ashamed of Shivraj Patil and
Vilasrao Deskmukh than I'm today. I've always disliked them deeply,
but this is the last straw. These guys claim ancestry from Shivaji,
but the way they talk and the way they act; they are among the most
cowardly people in the entire world.
Both of them blurted out more nonsense today, some BS about "terrorism
has no religion" etc. Well, if 99% of the terrorists are Muslims,
then terrorism does have a religion.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
"99% of the terrorists are Muslims"
What is your source for this ?
Okay it is 90%


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